Policy Review Disabling Likes

[Birkal]

We have the technology.

While likes are a useful way of finding a community consensus within the Create-A-Pokemon Project, they also have the misfortune of causing some pretty severe bandwagoning. Many readers will often read (and consequentially vote on) posts based on their like count rather than their actual content. It's particularly worrisome that individual posts or factions can draw the conversation away from the Topic Leadership Team's discretion by gathering likes. Finally, it also has the negative side effect of lowering the amount of posts in each thread. Users are less likely to express their opinions when they can simply click the 'like' button.

From what I've gathered on IRC and previous PRC threads, the consensus is that likes should be removed. However, I think this group has largely been the competitive contributors of the project. I'm interested in hearing the relevant opinions of flavor personnel and our other subforums (pre-evo / metagame / PRC). Should we remove likes across the board, or only in the main project?

Let's hear your thoughts. I'll be the thread leader, by the way. I'm quite interested in this topic!

 

[jas61292]

As I'm sure you all know, I hate likes and wish them to go away. Not much more to say on that then has already been said in the OP and in previous threads. However, I would just like to add that I am only really in favor of this for the main CAP forum and maybe the PRC (undecided on that one). I'd like them to be kept for the metagame forum, which is no different than any other competitive forum, and as for the pre-evo forum, for the most part is has been treated like the process archive, so I don't really know if it matters, but if it does, I really have no problem with them there.

 

[nyttyn]

Baptize them in flame, they have barely any positives (they've more or less become one like = one prayer) , and almost entirely negatives. As stands the only use they serve is for artists to gauge how much people like a given design, but PMs and replies already exist for that purpose, and that one positive alone does not outweigh the negatives that Birkal has listed.

 

[Bughouse]

Things I wish I had time for: research to show how likes have influenced slating choices. I don't have hard data on me, but my gut is that it has had a noticeable impact, particularly on concept slating.

I'm confused why flavor should be an exception when flavor has always had the toughest rules on bandwagoning in the first place (i.e. it's not illegal in a competitive discussion to agree 100% with a post and say that a specific typing/movepool/etc. should win, but it is illegal to post in the art thread saying a specific design is the best and should win.)

 

[Bull Of Heaven]

Maybe I'm just old and cranky, but I'm not sure likes ever really added that much to CAP. We didn't seem to have too much trouble figuring out what people liked before we had them. I can't see this affecting flavour steps much, since people can still give each other feedback, and likes can't affect slating there anyway. I see no reason not to remove them from the main project, and enough was said in the other thread about why they should go.

 

[Bughouse]

20:54 srk1214 Birkal can you confirm? - Likes are available or not on a forum level, not individual thread level
20:55 Birkal let me check
20:55 Birkal (sorry, making banana bread)
20:56 Birkal forums is the smallest level, it seems
20:56 srk1214 yeah I thought so
20:56 srk1214 so this discussion about flavor is kinda moot
20:56 srk1214 unless you're gonna do a flavor subforum T_T
20:56 Birkal yikes

Technical issues, just to make everyone aware. To be clear, I'm not saying this is the definitive answer, but it's definitely an obstacle.

 

[paintseagull]

Kill it with fire, purge, destroy, eliminate, erase from history, banish to hell, etc
Especially from flavour in my opinion. Serves no purpose but laziness when it comes down to it.

I miss luvdiscs

 

[alexwolf]

Kill it with fire, purge, destroy, eliminate, erase from history, banish to hell, etc
Especially from flavour in my opinion. Serves no purpose but laziness when it comes down to it.

I miss luvdiscs

So, liking something instead of posting ''i like this design'' is laziness? I thought it was space saving and a convenient way to get people that can't be bothered to post to show their preference. Not all people have something constructive to post in flavor threads, so just expressing your subjective opinion in a very subjective process is more than enough.

Ideally, i would like us to keep likes in flavor steps and remove them from competitive steps, but if this is not possible, then get rid of them, their negatives outshine their positives.

 

[Tadasuke]

To continue echoing what all the others have been saying, likes really don't add much of anything at all to compensate for the harm that they may cause. To me, all they really do is demonstrate appreciation (which is exactly what a like is) which can be more intelligently done by actually typing out a response instead of half-assedly clicking a button. Their use seems to be more for campaigning and "pre-slate voting", and haven't truly done anything to help out a project. Going off of what jas61292 said, it might be wise to simply remove them from the main forum while keeping them on the subforums. I know for a fact that they actually serve a decent purpose in the metagame subforum in helping to reinforce correct ideas and to give a pat on the back to whomever might have performed well in the meta, for example by winning a tournament or making a useful or incredible team.

tl;dr Get rid of them on the main forum, keep on subforums

 

[Oglemi]

Likes remove two crucial aspects of the flavor process: getting feedback and community discourse. Sure, likes tell you how many people enjoy your design and probably which to keep going with if you post multiple, but they remove any specificity that could be gained from people having to post what they like about your design and instant feedback about which designs to pursue.

However, the major thing is the community discourse and sense of camaraderie or competition. Posts telling you how much they like your design mean infinitely more than a bunch of likes because a) they made an extra effort to post and put their approval into words b) that post is seen by everyone looking at the thread (whereas for likes you only see the number and 3 names) and c) can motivate other participants to cheer for other designs or entries. Posts build excitement, likes sap away excitement.

On top of that, likes, to me anyway, are a form of poll jumping because, as srk pointed out in this thread and what I did in the retention issue thread, they inform voters which of the designs or entries are going to be the most popular and influence voting. Which is also extremely discouraging for artists to contribute if they know before the poll even happens that they don't have a shot at winning.

Anyway, thought I'd clarify the points I brought up in the retention issues thread concerning likes, I know I'm not PRC so do what you will with this.

 

[paintseagull]

So much post-liking in a thread about removing likes...

Oglemi makes great points about flavour-likes that I agree with. Ask any artist: would you rather have 400 favourites and 0 comments or 0 favourites and 40 comments? Comments mean *so* much more. Do I favourite things instead of commenting? All the time. Would I comment more if I couldn't favourite? Definitely. A few artists have complained to me that they feel they get less feedback since we implemented likes to the forums.

I'm not sure I would abolish likes just for flavour reasons, but there is absolutely no problem with ditching them in flavour steps because we think it would be a benefit to the competitive side.

In summary, I think we're fine to not worry about the impact of ditching likes on flavour steps. Let's keep the focus on the competitive aspect which is driving this discussion.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

I completely realize that I'm on my own island when it comes to wanting to save likes. In the end, it's not like I'd be heartbroken if likes were disabled. I just feel that likes have some important benefits to offer. I apologize if this sounds rushed, but I wanted to at least make an effort to explain my stance.

So far it seems as if we've talked about likes as they relate to competitive threads, and how they've related to flavor threads, but it seems as if with each category it is assumed that users will participate in one side or the other. I dabble in both competitive discussions and in flavor (particularly art). Both of competitive and flavor discussions happen concurrently, albeit in their own little corners of the project. However, in order to be a fully engaged participant in both of these realms I personally find that it takes a great deal of effort, to put it loosely. With CAP19, I definitely felt like I was juggling between flavor and competitive threads. I'm assuming most of us have lives outside of Smogon, and maybe sticking to one side of CAP is more manageable between whatever personal commitments one has. But for the rare users who cross into both sides, I feel as if likes are a valuable crutch that saves time and energy.

With likes, I can make a few posts in a competitive thread, and like other ideas that I support without feeling compelled to waste time replying to everything I think is good. In art threads, I can use likes to gauge my progress and try to judge where I stand. Sure, getting and giving comments is great too. Until you realize that there are dozens of submissions each CAP, and commenting on all the ones you think are good easily becomes a wall of text. Kudos to users such as Quanyails and Paint who try to make fairly regular page-long posts trying to address all of the works. I tried to do that myself at the beginning of CAP19, but I quickly lost the time and there was no way that I could keep up with it. The truth, however, is if I want time to do both flavor and competitive CAP, then I simply have to cut corners. If you want to call using likes a lazy thing to do, then you very well might be right. But all of us are stretched with time to some capacity, and likes let us save time.

Likes also have the power to encourage new (and old) users and reward them for when they post well. In competitive discussions, it seems that there is fear that likes have the power to empower the wrong users/posts. Rather than blaming the like system itself, I think focusing on the quality of the posts is the underlying issue here. And, as it so happens, we've already talked about this issue and have agreed to try to stop it by moderating poor posts. If poor posts go away, then liking poor posts goes away as well. If you guys are afraid that good posts not being liked is an injustice, then you could have always liked posts you thought were good to start with. In flavor situations, likes have the power to support users as well. Some people have argued that seeing a few artists have a massive amount of likes is discouraging, and that having a poll without likes beforehand helps create a more even playing field without all the bandwagoning. Well, what does having a poll's results displayed do to the people who come in last? Doesn't that discourage them from participating again in a future CAP? Heck, I came in dead last in the art polls for Cawdet, my first ever CAP-related endeavor. Dead last. I had pretty much no votes (I think only 2), and so the only form of encouragement at all for me to stick with art in CAP was knowing that I at least had a handful of people who liked my post in the submission thread. If I hadn't gotten those likes, I very well might have given up on anything CAP art related. Likes have the power to let people know that their efforts weren't 100% wasted.

So umm yeah...
tldr; I have a personal bias for likes because they allow me to have enough time to actually do both flavor and competitive CAP. Comments and replies are great, but we don't all have the time. Likes also can encourage users to push through and to continue contributing. I like likes. However, if they have to go, then they have to go and I won't be heartbroken.

 

[Bughouse]

So much post-liking in a thread about removing likes...

Well, I would like to maintain likes in PRC, actually. PRC is more or less strictly democratic, except in the cases where things are decided more or less unilaterally by Doug and/or Birkal. Likes don't distort anything and save people from writing more than they need to. I also think that the users in PRC know how to like appropriately and also how to interpret likes appropriately. I don't think it's harmful in this particular subforum.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Didn't like Luvdiscs, don't like likes

Given that I am antipathetic towards likes features in general I won't lose any sleep if they're gone, but I can't help but feel that some people are overestimating the system a little bit vis-a-vis how much the likes feature influences votes and the extent to which it's an indicator of aptitude in or even an emotional encouragement for flavour steps. To wit:

Exhibit A: Professionally drawn battery symbiote complete with supporting art, animated GIF detailing progression, and rather eyebrow-raisingly zealous dedication to justifying its existence verbally and tying its competitive elements to its flavour design.

Exhibit B: Similarly exquisite sonic platypus with less rigorous but nevertheless sizeable flavour justification paragraph and some hastily cobbled-together supporting artwork.

Exhibit C: A mutilated bath sponge drawn in MS Paint and covered in white spaces where the fill tool couldn't reach, no supporting artwork and whatever vaguely bizarre justifications happened to be in the artist's head at the time of posting.

While anecdotes have very little to do with proper argument, it's clear enough that likes carry no information worth knowing and can be given for all number of reasons, most of which would qualify as having no content, and don't serve any purpose that is worth keeping them in some capacity. I don't see them being especially indicative of the result of a poll beyond simple correlation. I also don't see why keeping likes in the flavour or PRC threads is any better than keeping them in the competitive threads. Then again, I dislike likes anywhere, so do please take this opinion with a grain of salt.

 

[nyttyn]

Well, I would like to maintain likes in PRC, actually. PRC is more or less strictly democratic, except in the cases where things are decided more or less unilaterally by Doug and/or Birkal. Likes don't distort anything and save people from writing more than they need to. I also think that the users in PRC know how to like appropriately and also how to interpret likes appropriately. I don't think it's harmful in this particular subforum.

Eeh i'd argue likes have even less of a point in the PRC, since it's more or less expected we have discussions and support our opinions/stances with reasoning. Likes might as well be prayers for all the good they do for an argument, and only serve as a distraction. Let posts in PRC stand on their own merits, without being influenced or bogged down by unnecessary, potentially bias-causing fluff (likes) that, if we're doing our jobs correctly, nobody's paying attention to in the first place. But that's just my stance on it.

They're probably fine to keep in metagame, since that's a whole 'nother enchilada, but should stay out of pre-evo for the same reasons people are saying we should remove them in the CAP main forum for.

 

[Birkal]

If it wasn't clear, I'll be the assigned thread closer here. While I think HeaL has some points, the consensus I've seen from this thread and on IRC is that we should ditch 'em. If any of you have changed your mind since you last posted, let your thoughts be heard. Otherwise, it looks like we will be moving forward with the removal of likes from the main CAP forum (and consequentially the archive).

 

[Birkal]

Final result:

Likes will be removed from the main CAP forum, the CAP Process Archive, and the Pre-Evo Workshop. For the numerous reasons listed above, we've concluded that likes usually evoke more harm then help for the process. That being said, if we find that this is overly restrictive in the future, we can easily reinstate likes without too much trouble. If you, the reader, find this to be true in the future, don't hesitate to contact a CAP moderator to open a new discussion on bringing back likes to the CAP process forums.

Thanks for participating!